Origin Of Bliss

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Report this post | 19 Apr 2011 22:46 GMT | #2181504 |   | Split
Quote
Doos :
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paztopia :
^ There are loads of parties, and independants too.


One of them is the American Nazi Party .

But seriously, that list proves there are only two parties that are actually important in US politics. The Republicans and Democrats aren't just the only major parties, they're the only parties that matter. The others may exist, but they don't mean anything. They don't even have a realistic chance of becoming a significant national party.




it's sad, but atleast for now, the statement "vote for a third party, throw away your vote" is very true. It usually only takes essential votes away from the republican or democrat that is most similar to your views.


If Palin's president idk what i will do. Something crazy.


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tchocky

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Report this post | 19 Apr 2011 23:32 GMT | #2181505 |   | Split
The US does far more than any other country. See places like Haiti, Libya, and Bosnia. As a matter of fact, the pattern goes like this;

1.Terrible Natural disaster strikes.
2. US military responds.
4. US government immediately appropriates billions of dollars in aid.
4. Rest of civilized world shows up with maybe an eighth of the resources the US has already brought to bear.
4. Rest of world bitches that the US isn't doing enough. Or that we're doing it wrong. Or whatever the fuck.

Rwanda was a fucking tragedy. The worst since the holocaust. But no one else did a damn thing about it either. THE EU was glaringly absent given that Rwanda is a former German and Belgian colony. After the Belgian's tucked tale and RAN when their mission was overrun, Europe wouldn't touch the place, until the FRENCH, of all fucking people, executed operation turquoise. And even then, NO ONE did anything to stop the ethnic cleansing that was obviously going on. Another beautiful example of fucked up European colonialism.


Haiti is perhaps the best example. Europe rapes the place and then stands behind the US bitching while we try and save lives/help rebuild. Guesse which country maintains a the largest presence (both in terms of military and NGO's) in HAiti today, ....a year and a half later. I'll give you a hint. It's not in Europe.


The US promptly lost its shit and declared war on the very notion of terrorism, entering into an armed conflict against an abstract concept like only America can.

And after we beat Terrorism, were gonna beat Drugs! Then were going to take on Sadness!

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Report this post | 19 Apr 2011 23:05 GMT | #2181515 |   | Split
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no-name :
Quote
Doos :
I recently found a quote of Bush about the Rwanda genocide of 1994, also know as Clintons biggest regret because he didn't try to halt it. This is what Bush answered in 2000 when he was asked what he would do if another Rwanda happened: "We should not send our troops to stop ethnic cleansing and genocide outside our own strategic interest. I would not send US troops into Rwanda." . I knew Bush was bad, but I had no idea he was this bad.



You could attribute that quote to pretty much any post-WW2 US President. The US never does anything unless it's in their strategic interest.


Not just the US, but every other country in the (western) world as well. It's just slightly worse in the case of the US, because that is arguably the only country that has the influence and resources to successfully intervene in another country.
It's not surprising that the US doesn't do anything unless it's in their strategic interest, but the fact that Bush said it out loud about a specific and controversial case in history is just stupid.

Quote
tchocky :
The US does far more than any other country. See places like Haiti, Libya, and Bosnia. Rwanda was a fucking tragedy. The worst since the holocaust. But no one else did a damn thing about it either.


It's true other countries didn't do anything either, but at least they didn't actively stop the international community from intervening, like the US did by refusing to call it a genocide.
And as James said, the US only intervenes when it's in their strategic interest, and it so happens the US is a big country with a lot of national interest, so it isn't that surprising if they do more than any other country.


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Report this post | 19 Apr 2011 23:35 GMT | #2181517 |   | Split
I came back and added a lot to my post after I thought about it.

Doos
but at least they didn't actively stop the international community from intervening, like the US did by refusing to call it a genocide.


The UK wouldn't call it genocide either, and President Clinton was pretty clear that the US would take her cues from Great Britain on Rwanda.

See here.....

http://www.genocidewatch.org/COULD%20THE%20RWANDAN%20GENOCIDE%20HAVE%20BEEN%20PREVENTED.htm

Also,......People,.........Sarah Palin doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of getting the Republican nomination. Much less an electoral majority. Barnaby......because your so confident in that nonsense, I wish I could bet you a months wages.

I'll repeat,....SHE HAS NO CHANCE IN HELL. I'm on the record right here right now that if Sarah palin wins the Presidency,.......I'll EAT a copy of the Constitution. Hold me to it. I'll provide a youtube link of myself chowing down if that happens.


The US promptly lost its shit and declared war on the very notion of terrorism, entering into an armed conflict against an abstract concept like only America can.

And after we beat Terrorism, were gonna beat Drugs! Then were going to take on Sadness!

no-name

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Report this post | 19 Apr 2011 23:40 GMT | #2181531 |   | Split
Quote
tchocky :
The US does far more than any other country. See places like Haiti, Libya, and Bosnia. As a matter of fact, the pattern goes like this;



Haiti is a money spinner for France and the US. The two countries have held it by the economic balls since it gained 'independence'. Libya is a distraction, a sham, a headline-grabber. It's being touted as a humanitarian mission when it's nothing more than a way for Cameron and Sarkozy to get some poll ratings. Fuck knows why Obama got involved. Maybe because he was dying to start his own war and get his hands on some toys! Apparently blowing up Pakistanis at a ratio of 50 civilians to every 1 'target' isn't enough for him.

And I can't believe you'd mention Bosnia ... it just goes to show what the mass media can do, that people actually think the US/Nato did a good job on that one. Truly telling.

Quote
tchocky :
1.Terrible Natural disaster strikes.
2. US military responds.
4. US government immediately appropriates billions of dollars in aid.
4. Rest of civilized world shows up with maybe an eighth of the resources the US has already brought to bear.
4. Rest of world bitches that the US isn't doing enough.



Go read 'The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism' by Naomi Klein. Also, 1-2-4-4-4? Wha?

Quote
tchocky :
Rwanda was a fucking tragedy. The worst since the holocaust. But no one else did a damn thing about it either. THE EU was glaringly absent given that Rwanda is a former German and Belgian colony. After the Belgian's tucked tale and RAN when their mission was overrun, Europe wouldn't touch the place, until the FRENCH, of all fucking people, executed operation turquoise. And even then, NO ONE did anything to stop the ethnic cleansing that was obviously going on. Another beautiful example of fucked up European colonialism.



Well if the US is the leader you say it is in world problem correction, why did they sit back and do nothing? Also lol @ the American taking the moral high ground on post-war colonialism. Have you heard of Latin America or the Middle East?

Your last paragraph is so ironic I didn't want to embarrass you by quoting it.

Edit: I didn't mean to go so off topic. It always happens in these threads though, especially when there's so much bullshit flying around.


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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 00:15 GMT | #2181535 |   | Split
Quote
And I can't believe you'd mention Bosnia ... it just goes to show what the mass media can do, that people actually think the US/Nato did a good job on that one. Truly telling.

This is such a tired ruse from you, dude. I'm not saying that A good job was done in Bosnia,....but that SOMETHING was done. You claim the US does nothing unles it's in its interests. So explain to me how we gained by interveneing there. It's on you to back up your bullshit.
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Fuck knows why Obama got involved.

Because it's what the US does when there's a humanitarian crisis in her hemisphere. No mystery there.
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Go read 'The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism' by Naomi Klein.

Umm,....sure.
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Well if the US is the leader you say it is in world problem correction, why did they sit back and do nothing?

The UK wouldn't call it genocide either, and President Clinton was pretty clear that the US would take her cues from Great Britain on Rwanda, given her history of Colonial experimentation in Africa. (Apartheid anyone?)

See here.....

http://www.genocidewatch.org/COULD%20THE%20RWANDAN%20GENOCIDE%20HAVE%20BEEN%20PREVENTED.htm

Quote
Have you heard of Latin America or the Middle East?

Not only have I heard of them, I've been to those places. And are you seriously comparing a couple decades of funding rebel movements or financially supporting dictators to hundreds of years of first-person rule all over the world? Hell. The US itself wasn't even a country until we told King George to go fuck himself. Don't be an idiot.
Quote
Your last paragraph is so ironic I didn't want to embarrass you by quoting it.

Here I'll do it for you.
TCHOCKY
Haiti is perhaps the best example. Europe rapes the place and then stands behind the US bitching while we try and save lives/help rebuild. Guesse which country maintains a the largest presence (both in terms of military and NGO's) in HAiti today, ....a year and a half later. I'll give you a hint. It's not in Europe.

What exactly am I to be embarrassed of?

You're anti-americanism is well documented. Isn't it time you began supporting it with something more than ridiculous derps that illustrate your overpowering ignorance?

Quote
Edit: I didn't mean to go so off topic. It always happens in these threads though, especially when there's so much bullshit flying around.

Said Bullshit is generally issuing copiously out of your maw, champ. If it bothers you, (or rather, being called on it bothers you) save yourself the embarrassment and step away from the keyboard.

ON TOPIC. Sarah Palin can't win. Republicans have no serious candidates. Obama wins second term.


The US promptly lost its shit and declared war on the very notion of terrorism, entering into an armed conflict against an abstract concept like only America can.

And after we beat Terrorism, were gonna beat Drugs! Then were going to take on Sadness!

Mass Affect

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 00:40 GMT | #2181552 |   | Split
Donald Trump would be a joke as President. If there's anyone thus far I'd vote for it'd be Mitt Romney. I'd rather not see Obama get another term. If he's not trying to secretly and quickly shove things through the Senate and House (universal healthcare), he's being indecisive and backing away from issues (universal healthcare to start). Although, he has tried the hardest to be bi-partisan than any other recent President, I believe, something no one will truly achieve though. Oh and I like that he let Libya do their thing rather than completely stepping in and forcing a way of governing and such.


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no-name

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 01:01 GMT | #2181556 |   | Split
Edit: ^You sure about that? It was the Republicans who forced Obama to water down the healthcare bill and force him to grant them certain things. It was also the Republicans who recently forced Obama to accept ludicrous add-ons to the deficit reduction package. I'm no fan of Obama's foreign policy (though that's not saying much, since every US President has had the same foreign policy since 1945), but domestically he's been hampered by pushy and inept Republicans. He deserves another term not only because there's no Red alternative, but because he deserves another shot at some decent reforms without being scuppered by whiny Republicans.

Haven't we been through all this before? Yes? Once more for good measure then.

Quote
tchocky :
This is such a tired ruse from you, dude. I'm not saying that A good job was done in Bosnia,....but that SOMETHING was done. You claim the US does nothing unles it's in its interests. So explain to me how we gained by interveneing there. It's on you to back up your bullshit.



The US got involved, not because of concern for the thousands of Bosnians being indiscriminately killed, but because the Serbian government wouldn't adopt the economic approach that the rest of Europe had already taken on after the fall of communism. It was a way for Serbia to be - at best - off the map and - at worst - forced to adhere to the West's economic rules. That comes from the mouth of Strobe Talbott, the US Deputy Secretary of State during the war. That's where a lot of people have difficulty, in looking at the real reasons for war. It's not always obvious and you sometimes have to do a little digging.

Not to mention the numerous war crimes NATO committed during the Bosnian War (then in the Kosovo War a few years later).

And why is it a 'tired ruse'? The media is vital in shaping how people respond to things like this. So when something goes unreported or is manipulated by the media, why isn't that relevant? The Bosnian War is a great example of this. While everyone in the West was giving themselves a nice pat on the back for the 'humanitarian action' in Bosnia, any serious observer was watching the US get involved in another war based on its own interests.

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tchocky :
Because it's what the US does when there's a humanitarian crisis in her hemisphere. No mystery there.



Yeah, you're probably right. And in the interests of the US, not whatever country it happens to be bombing.

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tchocky :
Umm,....sure.



Excellent response. Well done

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tchocky :
The UK wouldn't call it genocide either, and President Clinton was pretty clear that the US would take her cues from Great Britain on Rwanda, given her history of Colonial experimentation in Africa. (Apartheid anyone?)



So, the most powerful nation on Earth, with all its resources and all its knowledge... is incapable of analysing a situation and acting upon that analysis? Surely the US command wasn't sitting waiting on a phone call from Britain... the US routinely vetoes UN security council resolutions, ignores international condemnation for its incursions into other countries and its brutal foreign policy... but this time it's all in Britain's hands. Yeah, sure.

By the way, I'm not defending the UK's role (or lack of it) in Rwanda. I'm merely pointing out that you pointing the finger, in a sort of 'Yeah but he did it as well!' way is quite sad.

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tchocky :
Not only have I heard of them, I've been to those places. And are you seriously comparing a couple decades of funding rebel movements or financially supporting dictators to hundreds of years of first-person rule all over the world? Hell. The US itself wasn't even a country until we told King George to go fuck himself. Don't be an idiot.



Uh, no. That's not what I was saying. For the record, I'm in no way 'proud' to be British. I'm not 'proud' of the British Empire. I'm one of the apparently few people over here that actually accepts the British Empire for what is was- a brutal and disgusting machine. The colonial Brits killed countless millions in pursuit of land, resources and... well, more land. I didn't compare the two because there's no comparison to make.

What I did say is that it's absolutely astonishing to see an American come out and so brazenly defend his country in this issue. The US, since 1945, has done nothing but seek to preserve and often expand its control and access to geopolitical/economic assets. You're the idiot if you refuse to accept that the US has committed countless horrific acts in pursuit of those things.

And if you do know anything about Latin America, you'll know of the countless brutal, genocidal regimes it supported and often set up. The Colombian government is one such regime that the US continues to support and the current situation in Northern Mexico is another case of the the US turning a blind eye to atrocities that it can't realistically gain anything from.

Quote
tchocky :
Here I'll do it for you.
TCHOCKY
Haiti is perhaps the best example. Europe rapes the place and then stands behind the US bitching while we try and save lives/help rebuild. Guesse which country maintains a the largest presence (both in terms of military and NGO's) in HAiti today, ....a year and a half later. I'll give you a hint. It's not in Europe.

What exactly am I to be embarrassed of?



You're to be embarrassed by the fact that you sound like an official spokesman for the US government.

Quote
tchocky :
You're anti-americanism is well documented. Isn't it time you began supporting it with something more than ridiculous derps that illustrate your overpowering ignorance?



See above.


Tře

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 01:51 GMT | #2181576 |   | Split
Mike and James go talk in the general world politics thread.


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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 07:42 GMT | #2181606 |   | Split
Not really being into politics and "in the know", I just looked up a couple of interviews with Sarah Palin. The the thought of her being allowed to use a pair of scissors terrifies me, let alone being made president of America. There shouldn't even be an outside chance of someone as fundamentally dim as that winning an election.


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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 11:17 GMT | #2181660 |   | Split
Quote
tchocky :
Here I'll do it for you.
TCHOCKY
Haiti is perhaps the best example. Europe rapes the place and then stands behind the US bitching while we try and save lives/help rebuild. Guesse which country maintains a the largest presence (both in terms of military and NGO's) in HAiti today, ....a year and a half later. I'll give you a hint. It's not in Europe.

What exactly am I to be embarrassed of?



Europe isn't a country. kthxbai.


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Tře

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 12:24 GMT | #2181672 |   | Split
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Oceansizer :
Quote
tchocky :
Here I'll do it for you.
TCHOCKY
Haiti is perhaps the best example. Europe rapes the place and then stands behind the US bitching while we try and save lives/help rebuild. Guesse which country maintains a the largest presence (both in terms of military and NGO's) in HAiti today, ....a year and a half later. I'll give you a hint. It's not in Europe.

What exactly am I to be embarrassed of?



Europe isn't a country. kthxbai.


This is getting way too off topic.
What he said was that the country he was thinking about is not in Europe. What has that got to do with Europe being a country?

anyway. back on topic. there's a lot of accusations of Obama not being born in America. seems a bit fucked up.


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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 13:27 GMT | #2181689 |   | Split
Yeah, you tell em, Tře! Listen to what he says from now on.


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Origin Of Bliss

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 16:17 GMT | #2181741 |   | Split
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Tře :
Mike and James go talk in the general world politics thread.



i think they desearve their own politics thread in unmod.


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tchocky

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 17:25 GMT | #2181759 |   | Split
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Tře :
Mike and James go talk in the general world politics thread.



That thread has ruined this forum. It'd be fine, and the proper place, if it had been left as a "US politics" thread, but Origin changed the name and so it's become a ridiculous catch-all that makes it impossible to follow any one conversation. You must have noticed how DEAD this forum is since that? No one comes in here anymore except for the Football and Formula 1 discussions.


The US promptly lost its shit and declared war on the very notion of terrorism, entering into an armed conflict against an abstract concept like only America can.

And after we beat Terrorism, were gonna beat Drugs! Then were going to take on Sadness!

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 17:39 GMT | #2181764 |   | Split
I don't think that's the reason it's not particularly active, but I do agree with you about that thread.
Easy way around it is to just make threads on whatever issue you want discussed, it's fair game.


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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 18:08 GMT | #2181778 |   | Split
The Formula 1 thread is amazing.


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no-name

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 18:13 GMT | #2181780 |   | Split
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tchocky :
Quote
Tře :
Mike and James go talk in the general world politics thread.



That thread has ruined this forum. It'd be fine, and the proper place, if it had been left as a "US politics" thread, but Origin changed the name and so it's become a ridiculous catch-all that makes it impossible to follow any one conversation. You must have noticed how DEAD this forum is since that? No one comes in here anymore except for the Football and Formula 1 discussions.



It's not that difficult to follow. Not many people even post in it. I think it's better to have a general thread than a US-specific one so that people can bring in stories from around that maybe aren't big enough for their own thread.


tchocky

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 18:28 GMT | #2181783 |   | Split
If they aren't worthy, people won't post and they'll sink away. Putting anything and everything in ONE thread because it says "general" at the top is foolish.

Just my opinion, but I think it's fairly ruined the best forum on the site.

Quote
Easy way around it is to just make threads on whatever issue you want discussed, it's fair game.


I agree. But not everyone has seen that memo. A lot of great topics have gotten no attention because people put them in that thread. On a forum with a diverse mix of nationalities represented,....a single "general world politics" thread doesn't work.

Anyway,....I've beat this dead horse for a long time. I'll stop now. Promise.


The US promptly lost its shit and declared war on the very notion of terrorism, entering into an armed conflict against an abstract concept like only America can.

And after we beat Terrorism, were gonna beat Drugs! Then were going to take on Sadness!

Origin Of Bliss

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 18:42 GMT | #2181788 |   | Split
Quote
no-name :
Quote
tchocky :
Quote
Tře :
Mike and James go talk in the general world politics thread.



That thread has ruined this forum. It'd be fine, and the proper place, if it had been left as a "US politics" thread, but Origin changed the name and so it's become a ridiculous catch-all that makes it impossible to follow any one conversation. You must have noticed how DEAD this forum is since that? No one comes in here anymore except for the Football and Formula 1 discussions.



It's not that difficult to follow. Not many people even post in it. I think it's better to have a general thread than a US-specific one so that people can bring in stories from around that maybe aren't big enough for their own thread.



I changed the name because people where moaning why it was only about the US. I could change it back at anytime.

on review, it was no-name that asked it to be changed. I'm not getting involved in the argument between you two unless you come out with some solution among yourselves.


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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 19:13 GMT | #2181800 |   | Split
Largest donor of foreign aid in the world is the E.U.

Second largest is the U.S. this is true.... but lets not get too excited.

As a percentage of GNI however, the U.S gives just a little bit more than Greece... which is the 23 largest donor of foreign aid in the world.

Nearly all members of the E.U individually give more foreign aid than the U.S when measured against their Gross National Income... Sweden actually gives the most amount of aid in the world when you take into consideration the size of its economy in the first place.


Lets not mix up 'giving the most amount of aid in the world' and simply having a huge economy and giving a small amount of money proportionate to that economy... looking at in in those terms, and the U.S actually looks quite stingy.

Commence the Barnaby hates America tripe..... just living with my eyes open.


You got some nerve, coming here.


I hate to agree with Barnaby, but the fact is, hes right.

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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 22:11 GMT | #2181861 |   | Split
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ohms12 :
Yeah, you tell em, Tře! Listen to what he says from now on.


can I has mod plz?


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Report this post | 20 Apr 2011 23:25 GMT | #2181906 |   | Split
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I changed the name because people where moaning why it was only about the US.


This is when you tell no name to make his own thread or get fucked.


The US promptly lost its shit and declared war on the very notion of terrorism, entering into an armed conflict against an abstract concept like only America can.

And after we beat Terrorism, were gonna beat Drugs! Then were going to take on Sadness!

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Report this post | 21 Apr 2011 01:26 GMT | #2181938 |   | Split
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tchocky :
Quote
I changed the name because people where moaning why it was only about the US.


This is when you tell no name to make his own thread or get fucked.





I asked him to rename the thread 'General Politics' because I thought it'd be a good idea to have somewhere to discuss stories in a general context, and to get a bit of a debate going without ever really going off topic. What's so bad about that?


tchocky

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Report this post | 21 Apr 2011 02:32 GMT | #2181948 |   | Split
I refer you to the clusterfuck that thread became and the total lack of newer threads with fresh ideas and conversations in them. I disagree with the majority of what most people here think. Everybody knows I'm ideologically to the right of most of you.There's a great deal of heat in the discussions here, but also a fair amount of light. It has rarely gotten personal. It's just gone wrong since Origin changed that title. Ideas that should have had their own threads didn't get them and the board has suffered for it. Am i supposed to go to another ML forum and talk about whether or not Dom is gay? Speculate on baby names for Matt and Kate's offspring? Discuss why Muse will always sound a little bit too much like Radiohead? I'd rather chew my arms off.

Let me say that, while I disagree with most of you usually, I don't think the people here are stupid. Even if I've said otherwise out of anger. If that were so I'd stop reading here. I reckon we all would.


The US promptly lost its shit and declared war on the very notion of terrorism, entering into an armed conflict against an abstract concept like only America can.

And after we beat Terrorism, were gonna beat Drugs! Then were going to take on Sadness!



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