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Xereo
828 posts
 - Melbourne
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i am still confused as to how me saying:
'hey i am just wondering how many of you musers are christains, and by christain i mean properly christian, not just that you were christianed as a baby that makes no diffrence atall.'
created this!!!
xxxx
dude ive been sooooooo wondering this for a long time as well....
anyways ive been thinking about predestination and saw the discussion of it so i thought id show my thoughts....
i believe that God DIDN'T choose a certain amount of people to go to heaven, and another amount of people to go to hell, because if I was one of the people that was being sent to hell, why on earth would i want to be "bringing glory" to God and why on earth would i want to believe him? if there is a verse in the bible that some of you think may argue against this point please put it forward, but if it does technically say in the bible, "God predestines people" then i see no reason to remain a christian...
but from what ive learnt and from what i believe, i believe that God loves us no matter what, and he gives us a choice to choose whether to believe in him and to follow him...
by the way im not trying to argue against anybody (i couldnt be bothered to specifically look at the arguments on predestination, i just noticed that there was a discussion on this topic), im just showing my thoughts...
Hordern Pavilion 24/1/2007
Sydney Entertainment Center 17/11/2007
Grant Park, Chicago 5/8/2011
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Wow, this has been a fascinating thread. I wish I had time to read the whole thing properly.
First, I'll chip in by saying that I'm Christian. And I mean a proper Christian -- go to church every week, read the scriptures often (not quite daily, though that's what I try for), and ponder God, the universe, and Christ's grace quite frequently. And I love Muse all the more for it. (Side note: Since becoming familiar with Muse, I firmly believe that there will be rock music in heaven: how could you keep out something as amazing and inspiring as this?)
I'd also just like to add that I think it's wise for everyone -- not just Christians -- to learn as much as possible about religion. The history of the world is largely the history of religions that have influenced people and nations, and the more we know about those things, the easier it is to uncover our own real beliefs.
Everything about you resonates happiness, now I wont settle for less.
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Thanks, Paul! I'm really sorry to see that this post has died ... such fascinating stuff here.
Everything about you resonates happiness, now I wont settle for less.
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ive been on graduation exams so i am and will be unable to respond to questions for a long while. so don't worry, its not that i can't answer the questions posed. the questions are highly answerable (see Kashmir's Robot Argument) so i suggest others answer instead of me. im just unable to reply with well drawn and thought out responses so it would be a fruitless exercise.
Xereo, your doctrine of God is inconsistent with the Bible and inconsistent with itself. please read this extensive list of Bible verses http://scripturetruths5.tripod.com/pande.html and see how you degrade and destroy the truth of God by saying things like that. you said "if it really does say, 'God predestines people' then i see no reason to remain Christian" - please read those verses, and see that predestination is not bad news but it is the most comforting and humbling news. Election/predestination is the most common thread throughout the entire Bible (as can be seen in that extensive and very helpful list) - to deny it is to deny true Christianity as a whole.
your view of salvation is extremely self-centered and it is contrary to the well known Biblical doctrine of Grace - Ephesians 2: 8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. "
if it was our choice, then it was by works, so that we could boast.
In John 15: 16, Jesus of all people says this - "You did not choose me, but I chose you"
what you "believe" in is far from Christian. and i am not trying to argue with you, i just fear for you.
two verses which i hope will be enough for you - if not, there are about 1000 different verses (Old and New Testament) in that link which show you the truth of Predestination in the Bible.
Ephesians 1: 11-12 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."
Romans 8: 28-30 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
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sara K
4179 posts
 - Backstage at Marlay Park!!
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Hello again, I'm a Christian too but not that fond of the usual discussion going on in here, imo lots of theory, not a lot about day-to-day life and concrete concerns... I do think God is as much in day-to-day life than in the Bible, and abstract debates are interesting but some more relaxed convos are nice too and helps building up a community (well that's my personal opinion, dont get too mad, end of my stupid babbling  ).
Has anyone seen Jesus Camp and for those who have, what do you think of that? And for those who havent (and know what I'm talking about), why didnt you go and watch it?
Jarrod  You will be the one I’ll always love
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Could you explain this:
nat
In John 15: 16, Jesus of all people says this - "You did not choose me, but I chose you"
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't that something Jesus said about choosing his disciples?
nat
Ephesians 2: 8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. "
This doesn't support or disprove your view. It seems to be about something different. Isn't it saying that we get to heaven through Jesus and not through good deeds? So we don't get to heaven by our works (good deeds or praying) but through salvation through Jesus.
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Question 1:
I read this verse alongside its twin counterpart in John 6, where Jesus says to the crowds of people "No one can come to me, unless my Father draws them". I take both these verses to mean the same thing, namely, it is not man that wills but God. The only difference between the two verses is that in John 15, Jesus is talking to his followers (disciples - all Christians are his disciples) and in John 6, Jesus is talking to a crowd of both believers and non-believers.
Question 2:
It supports my view because Grace and Election are essentially the same thing. I have shown this already when Paul describes Grace in Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
However what you said was completely true. "So we don't get to heaven by our works (good deeds or praying) but through salvation through Jesus."
But of course, Salvation comes through election - but it doesn't mean you have to substitute the words for each other. It is just another part of the boundless topic of Salvation. (in Romans 8:28-30, which is just one of hundreds of verses on the topic we see many aspects to Salvation; predestination, calling, justification and glorification)
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Xereo
828 posts
- Melbourne
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But of course, Salvation comes through election
I see your point nat, but could you explain this a bit more in depth please?
From what I gather about predestination, a bunch of people are randomly selected to go to hell, and a another bunch of people are randomly selected to go to heaven (which doesnt sound a thing like what a "loving" God would do)...im not trying to argue with you, i just want to know how you see this situation!
Hordern Pavilion 24/1/2007
Sydney Entertainment Center 17/11/2007
Grant Park, Chicago 5/8/2011
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LONG AND IN-DEPTH RESPONSE:
The Romans asked the same question that you are asking; "how can God be just in predestination?"
he answers it in two ways:
firstly, that God is God and we are not. God decideds what is just or not - our concept of justice has been tainted by sin.
Romans 9:19-21 " One of you will say to me: (your question) 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?' But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'(Isaiah 29:16, 45:9) Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"
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secondly, Paul shows us that predestination is the pinnacle of God's Glory revealed and the greatest cause of joy for the Christian.
>after explaining God's Grace (predestination, calling, justification and glorification) a couple of verses before, Paul responds by saying this:
Romans 8:31-33 "What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies."
>then Paul explains the benefits (as if you couldn't make a bigger understatement!) of God choosing to predestine, call, justify and glorify:
Roman 8:37-39 "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
>Paul goes on in the following chapter to explain the purpose of NOT predestining individuals to salvation (this in juxtaposition to election, is called reprobation):
Romans 9:22-23 "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath— prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory"
>This (Romans 9) response is heavily linked with what Paul explained earlier:
Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."
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You asked the question; is reprobation unjust and is it inconsistent with a loving God. Romans 9 and 8 show that in God's predetermining some not to be saved, mercy is all the more revealed to those who are.
>But firstly you need to ask the question, is God unjust to those he doesn't save?
Acts 17:25 "Because he himself (God) gives all men life and breath and everything else."
>It is evident to see that God is indeed loving yet to those he does not save. But it is the same for everyone - all people are only kept alive, every breath, every second by the pure mercy of God in not destroying us.
Psalm 44:22 "Yet for your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
>But God is equally merciful to all.
Matthew 5:45 "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."
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So it is unjust to suggest that God is not loving to those he doesn't save.
It is God who "gives and takes away" purely at his own pleasure. Throughout history God's purpose has been to save a select people - namely Israel. But this not the same Israel as the heriditary nation (read Romans 9-12 for elaboration) - because not all of the Israelite nation are saved.
This is shown most obviously in though Abraham had two children, Isaac and Ishmael (Abraham's seed) only Isaac was Israel, and though Jacob and Esau were twin brothers, only Jacob was Israel.
Therefore the true Israel (spoken of plainly in the New Testament) is God's chosen people among the world (see John 11) not the Israelite nation (Romans 10 - "Not all Israel are Israel").
So although God is universal in his common love (love for everyone), he is particular and definite in his love for Israel (the elect) - like a husband for his wife (Ephesians 4).
And you may ask, how is predestination consistent with sin & evil etc? The existence of Sin, Evil and Judgement while horrible in the temporary are necessary and in the end, used for good, by highlighting God's Mercy, Goodness and Forgiveness.
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Personally i think a God who isn't any of these things is a God who is:
a) Not in control
b) Not loving - because he leaves everything up to us
c) Not worth following
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Don't worry Xereo, religious people have the marvelous ability of holding contradictory concepts in one brain. You state that "a bunch of people are randomly selected to go to hell, and a another bunch of people are randomly selected to go to heaven" and that this "doesnt sound like a thing a "loving" God would do". And you are right - anyone who thinks otherwise needs to explain it. Of course if we applied this concept to any other situation it would be obvious that randomly torturing two of your three children isn't loving at all - and yet the religious mind manages to reconcile this idea. Compatibilism goes unexplained other than stating two incompatible concepts are compatible because if my beliefs are to be true then they have to be.
And the rationale? It must be loving because god is loving therefore it's loving. Get it? It's perfectly simple and that is what all nat's thought process boils down to. The strange thing is that he knows this on some level. "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." We know this? We assume this and therefore god doesn't have to show his love, he just does whatever and it is by definition loving.
nat
Personally i think a God who isn't any of these things is a God who is:
a) Not in control
b) Not loving - because he leaves everything up to us
c) Not worth following
Why is it not loving for god to give his creation a chance to be saved? I can answer, god doesn't give some people a chance to be saved - therefore this must be loving! It's so simple lol!
It's clear to me that Christianity, along with every other religion is just a way of explaining human nature. It talks about pride, about feelings of worthlessness, powerlessness, the desire to be controlled, feelings of awe etc... It takes all this perfectly natural ideas and tries to explain them in some kind of primitive science and it did a good job - in its day. But it's day has passed and clinging onto it is a bit like clinging to the idea that natural disasters are acts of god but acts which god doesn't cause. A contradiction that we are willing to accept only if we have closed our minds with an assumption.
I don't expect nat to understand. He has failed to explain WHY it is loving to create something for the purpose of making it suffer. You have asked him Xereo, but if you look back, I have asked him perhaps a dozen times. Each time the question has been avoided. He tells me that god creates some people with the purpose they should go to hell, he tells me god is all loving and concludes it is loving to create people predestined for hell. Apparently that is logical. You can prove anything if you start with the assumption that it is true.
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Xereo
828 posts
- Melbourne
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dont get too friendly with me Kashmir, cos im a christian nah just jokin...
but as you can see most christians believe different things...just dont get too persuaded by the christianity shown on these threads, cos theres a lot more (and a hell of a lot of differences) then what there is on muse live!
Hordern Pavilion 24/1/2007
Sydney Entertainment Center 17/11/2007
Grant Park, Chicago 5/8/2011
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read my post closer before making assumptions kashmir - i said there are different kinds of love. look closer at that.
kashmir, in science Scientists refer to data and evidence, scientists who don't reference these are not scientists at all. in christianity, proper Christians refer to the Bible and their own reason (as a means of understanding the Bible; with knowledge, science etc.), christians who don't use the Bible are not christians at all. musicians play musical instruments, thus making them musicians. i could go on forever - but differences within christianity are irrelevant. christianity ceases to be christianity if it doesn't match up to its own criteria (the Bible).
answersingenesis may say that they are scientists, so it could be said there are "many differences within science". however, the truth is that there is only one true science (that uses investigation, evidence and reason), and answersingenesis is not part of it because it fails the criteria that matches up to it. Christianity is not bound by denominations, but it does follow criteria, and that is called sound doctrine - that is a true belief in the Bible.
so while mike might boast of a "hell of a lot of differences" in Christianity, he would be wrong. unless he was referring to the broad meaningless nominal term christianity (including mormons, jehovah's witnesses, rastapharians, self-flaggelating catholics and extremist fundamentalist americans - or from a middle-eastern point of view, western people in general) then yes he is right in saying that. but in true Christianity there is NOT a "hell of a lot of differences" - you can only differ on the Bible so much before you are not believing the same thing.
xereo's beliefs are not a different "type" of Christianity. according to the Bible it is NOT Christianity. well, i've yet to see him refer to the Bible in support of his arguments.
when i have time i will re-answer kashmir's question. i've answered it many times, however each time i am accused of not answering it. read closely.
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Xereo
828 posts
- Melbourne
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so while mike might boast of a "hell of a lot of differences" in Christianity
I was never refering to general christianity when i said this nat... I was trying to say to Kashmir that christianity is a whole lot more than what it seems on this "Christian Musers Thread"...I was trying to make a point that there is a whole lot more to christian life then what is displayed on here...
and hopefully this is something we can finally both agree on...
Hordern Pavilion 24/1/2007
Sydney Entertainment Center 17/11/2007
Grant Park, Chicago 5/8/2011
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The Bible isn't the authority on what Christ taught. The Bible is only a collection of what other people said Christ taught, told through the lens of the Church and history. Therefore you can reject certain aspects of the Bible very easily and still claim to be a Christian in essence. Following the Bible makes you a Bible follower which you call a Christian - but a true Christian would follow a book written by Jesus. Actually, why didn't Jesus write a book before he died for his apostles to find post mortem? Oh well.
Catholicism is nonsense because you don't believe the Pope has the authority to be the messenger of god on earth. Why do the so called apostles and creators and people who collate the Bible have this authority but the Pope doesn't? Because you say so basically. Because the Pope is obviously not the messenger of god, I mean look at Catholicism it's obvious! That isn't good enough. Who are you to question how god chooses to show himself and his love? You may not like what the Pope says but that is your rebellious nature as god predestined you to have! What is the difference between the claims the Pope has to the claims the Apostles have over their privileged position to have god working through them? This is all rhetoric so don't go quoting the Bible at me - deal with the important stuff which has been glossed over. When you find the time of course and if you want to!
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i've answered it many times, however each time i am accused of not answering it. read closely.
I read closely. So closely that I sometimes bash my head against the screen - repeatedly.
You read closely. Read what you write and really look at my questions. Try to answer it like an exam question. As I'm sure you're sick of by now! Seriously try and stick to the point. Not once have you properly addressed my analogies - and there are many. These were intended to make it easier for you to explain your thinking process. Instead you just reiterate what the Bible teaches - that doesn't explain why compatibilism is sensible. All it does is explain that compatibilism is necessary for your beliefs. That doesn't mean it makes sense. If I fall out of a plane, my ability to fly is necessary for my survival. Doesn't mean I can fly!
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I am sure you are all aware of the story of Moses and the ten plagues of Egypt. And those of you who claim to be devote Christians I'd like you to pay careful attention to the acts of YOUR god.
A short summary of the story itself first:
Moses returns to Egypt at around the age of 80 with his brother Aaron.
his mission is to liberate the Israelites from Egypt and take them to the land which Yahweh had promised to them generations before. Now, as the story goes, Moses returns to Egypt and demands from Pharoah that the Israelites be freed. Naturally, Pharoah declines, resulting in the first plague - water into blood - which God instructed Moses to do. When the water is turned to blood, Pharoah agrees to allow Israel to go and offer worship to Yahweh outside of Egypt as Moses had asked.
So, the blood is turned back into water and then Pharoah refuses to let them leave as God had made his heart stubborn. This continues throughout the ten plagues, and becomes rather monotonous. Each time the Pharoah agrees but then refuses as God made his heart stubborn.
The following is an actual quote from the Bible, and is the actual word of Yahweh,
from his mouth. It is his explanation as to why he made Pharoahs heart stubborn just before
the 8th plague - locusts - is rained down upon Egypt.
(To Moses)
" Go to Pharoah, for it is I who have made his heart and his courtiers stubborn, so that I could work these signs of mine among them; so that you can tell your sons and grandsons how I made fools of the Egyptians and what signs I performed among them, to let you know that I am Yahweh" Exodus 10:1-3
The next quote is after Israel has left and are now travelling to the Sea of Reeds (Now the Red Sea)
(To Moses)
" Tell the sons of Israel to turn back and pitch camp in from of Pi-hahiroth, between Midgol and the sea, facing Baal-zephon. You are to pitch your camp opposite this place, beside the sea. Pharaoh will think 'Looks how these sons of Israel wander to and fro in the countryside; the wilderness has closed in on them'. Then I shall make Pharaoh's heart stubborn and he will set out in pusuit of them. But I shall win glory for myself at the expense of Pharoah and all his army, and the Egyptians will learn that I am Yahweh." Exodus 14:1-4
Now could someone please tell me how you could possibly worship such a being?! God is clearly exploiting the entire population of TWO nations here just so he can feel good about himself.
How can one possibly praise such a self-centred, ego-manical "god"??
I must know.
...the fact that it been chosen makes me thing it`ll be pants and were getting NSC 2. - Me, about Survival.
Its not elitism, some people are just better than others. - Joe.
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Xereo:
if you indeed were saying that there is MORE to Christianity than can be shown in writing then you're right, but you didn't say that. you said there is a "hell of a lot of differences" in Christianity, which is completely different to saying that there is a "hell of a lot more to" Christianity. Choose you're words more carefully next time - but you're right, of course there is more to Christianity that can be shown in writing! but there is not more to the Christian message.
but its the same if i describe a tiger on this forum - i can describe it fully, but of course it is nothing compared to a tiger in real life. does this however, make it a different thing? no - one is a physical picture, the other is mental picture, but they are the same thing, with NO differences.
Kashmir:
Question: Why does the Bible/Apostles have authority?
Answer:
a) Jesus gave the apostles authority (see Great Commission)
b) The teachings of the Apostles are consistent and the same with what Jesus said and with the entire Old Testament.
c) God is the God of Truth, and "all truth comes from God" - in this sense all truth has authority, so if the Pope says something true, then he does have authority. However truth is judged against (exactly what you said) the teachings of Jesus and the DIRECT justifiable revelation of God (as well as general knowledge, science, history etc.)
this is also how Christians judge prophecy (1 Corinthians 14) - those who prophesy/speak in tongues are weighed against a) their consistency with the teachings of Jesus and b) their bearing on truth and knowledge.
Question: Compatibilism?
Answer:
I was a believer in Compatibilism philosophically before i was theologically. so it isn't a means of me justifying "contradictions" in the Bible. but regardless, i will attempt to explain why it is sensible.
i think Compatibilism is sensible because it takes both Free Will and Determinism into account:
a) it admits that everything present and in the future is a result of past actions, and a general chain of events (God, Nature/Evolution etc.) - this can be observed, therefore making it provable.
b) whilst it also admits that the human will is free unless it is under a compulsion by another person. and since God or Nature or Evolution are not persons, it would be wrong to say that the human will is under compulsion. and also, though composed through circumstance, the human is still the executor of the will - making them responsible for the action, whilst a chain of events (including God) undoubtebly caused that action.
i believe the definition of free will is not the choice to have done otherwise, but that the will is not under any compulsion. therefore we can conclude, that determinism limits choice, but essentially does not enforce compulsion.
from this i can safely say, though God is the author of causality, it is lawful for him to hold us responsible because we execute the will as moral agents. that is as simple a defence i can make of compatibilism at the moment. but i was reading the other day (no, it wasn't written by biased Christians) about Compatibilism and physics, and how the universe/matter and physics as we know it can only be explained through Compatibilism - though i don't fully understand, i think that if this is true then the Bible gives an incredible insight into the workings of the universe. which you hope it would.
because time is limited i cannot deal with the issue of love and judgement from God. i will some it up shortly though before expanding - though God loves all undeniably, his decree to hate sin stands above that love. this is seen most clearly in God's effort to purchase/save a people for himself - it was not enough for him just to forgive their sins (because this was contrary to his decree against sin), sin therefore had to be judged. this is why Galatians says that "Christ became sin for us", meaning that on him (Jesus, who is himself God), God judged the sins of his chosen people - in order to spare them and instead, punish himself. this is undeniably an act of love.
name:
thankyou for raising this highly revelant question.
here are the reasons for God's action in Egypt:
a) firstly he was fulfilling his covenant to his chosen people inside the nation of Israel. this was his promise to them, that He would reveal his glory through them; with an inheritance of descendants, land and blessing.
this is the common distinguishable theme throughout the Bible - God is so loyal to those people that he has chosen (those who believe in him), that he is willing to cause evil in the temporary to result in good in the long term. this is most effectively shown in the crucifixion of Jesus - though the event was evil beyond reckoning, according to the Bible it was entirely the Will of God. and it was the Will of God that out of the horrible and unjust death of Jesus, his chosen covenant people would be saved. similarly out of his determined destruction of the Egyptian Army, is chosen covenant people would be saved.
b) secondly, God was responding to the complaints of Israel (see Exodus chapter 1) that he had abandoned his covenant people. God was proving his faithfulness to his own people (rather than exploiting the Israelites) by making "fools of the Egyptians" and by the "signs performed among them". another common theme in the Bible is God proving his faithfulness to his people - rather than his people proving their faithfulness to God (they are ultimately unfaithful). commonly throughout the Bible, his exclusive faithfulness to his people is shown by the judgement of those who are not his people. this is shown symbolically throughout the Old Testament battles and wars - God's judgement of another people, proves his covenant love to his own people. according to the Bible this will ultimately be shown in judgement day - where God will show his mercy and love for his chosen people, by judging those who aren't.
c) thirdly, this is all fine, but what gives God the right to judge and claim all the Glory? the third of the common themes in the Bible is God's power, justice and sovereignty. God created the universe - would this not result in God being praiseworthy? of course it would. but then you're argument against this would be - God is cruel for letting/making bad things happen. therefore he is not praiseworthy.
but heres an analogy to understand the purpose of God's actions. we see things through the first lense (a finite, limited, mortal lense that only sees events in the present). God sees things through both the first lense and the second lense, exclusive to his characteristics (an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, immortal lense, that sees things not just in the temporary, but also sees the past and future too) - and it is with this lense that he determines events etc. though in the first lense, God will cause horrible things to happen, and he is no stranger to pain, in the second lense, the act is justified - and an ultimately wise decision according to his plan.
so we can complain only in the first lense, only seeing the present consequences from a mortal perspective - however God works all things, including evil, for good (Romans 8-9). and good, is determined as his plan to fulfill his promises to his covenant people.
so i can follow God because he is worthy of praise and glory (he created everything therefore making it lawful for him to achieve glory however he wants), and his purpose/will, though incomprehensible from a human perspective, is perfect - because he is all powerful, all knowing and is the God of Truth. the proof of this can be observed in the records of the Bible, and even today.
i apologize if my responses were limited, i am short of time.
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Xereo
828 posts
- Melbourne
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i can see the point david...my response is that God would never do such a thing today...for example, in the old testament, the custom was "and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", take revenge on those who deserve revenge... but then God sent Jesus, who preached the messages "love your neighbour", "love your enemey", "do to others as you would have them do to you" and so on...this is why Jesus was persecuted because he was teaching a message that was against the traditional Jewish belief of revenge....
i know this isnt an in depth answer, mainly because it would take some time to research it and stuff (and im quite sure nat smythe will give you the thurough answer), but i hope this clears some things up for you!
Hordern Pavilion 24/1/2007
Sydney Entertainment Center 17/11/2007
Grant Park, Chicago 5/8/2011
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xereo you have a right understanding of the new testament teachings of Jesus, but "love you neighbour and love your enemy" are from the Old Testament Law.
Matthew 22:38-40
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
the first quote is from Deutoronomy 6:5, the second (and more relevant) comes from Leviticus 19:18. Both are Old Testament quotes.
Does your Bible have references Xereo? I reccomend the ESV with concordances and references etc.
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Xereo
828 posts
- Melbourne
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Thanks for the recommendation...I've never heard of it before and wonder how you do it so quickly...
I will put forward another argument about predestination...this ESV thing is quite useful...
In the following passages it says how to receive eternal life/go to heaven...
16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Matthew 19:16
25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, [1] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Just from reading these verses, I get the impression that predestination doesn't have a role in our decision to follow God (and therefore receiving eternal life)...
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The first verse you quoted i presume was either Luke 18, Matthew 19 or Mark 9 (all are the same account)
the whole account says (from Luke):
A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. " No one is good - except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother"
"All these I have kept since I was a boy" he said.
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdowm of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Those who heard this asked, " Who then can be saved?"
Jesus replied, " What is impossible with men, is possible with God."
Explanation: Yes, that one verse on it's own may seem as if man must choose to be saved - or at least follow the commandments. But what Jesus makes notice even early on in the dialogue ("No one is good, except for God") is that man is unable to fulfill the commandments. He shows this by making an example of the rich man, who believes he has fulfilled all the commandments - Jesus tells him to sell everything, and he refuses, proving that in fact he couldn't fulfill all the commandments.
Then the crowd, upon seeing that they were unable to "inherit eternal life" by fulfilling the commandments are worried - "who then can be saved?" (verse 26). Jesus answers by saying that it is not man who saves himself, but God - "What is impossible with men, is possible with God" (verse 27)
So the entire passage reveals a different story.
His response is the same in your second quote, Matthew 19 - upon the rich man's claim to have fulfilled the commandments, Jesus answers "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (verse 21)
Once again the rich man walks away sad. Then (this is obviously the two Gospel writers - who strangely were in no relation to each other - telling the same story) Jesus answers the crowds question, "Who then can be saved?" (verse 25). And again, Jesus answers "With man this is impossible (getting saved), but with God all things are possible." (verse 26)
Mark 9 shows the exact same story. So this example does not to best to illustrate your argument. But I'll carry on.
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John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
To fully understand this verse properly I will put alongside a verse from Acts.
Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Explanation: What the writer of Acts (Luke) is saying is that all who believe are "ordained to eternal life" by God.
And simarlarly in John 15:16, Jesus says "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you"
So you can conclude that John 3:16 is in no way contradicted by Predestination.
"For God so loved the World that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him (that meaning, those God has chosen) should not perish but have eternal life."
And if you think the word World implies every single person (because surely every single person wasn't elected for eternal life!), i will put it alongside another John verse that talks about the world.
John 11:51-52 "Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one."
Consistently the writer of John uses the word "world" to desrcribe God's children in the world. and the use of this word "world" is completely seperate from the same word talking about the sinful world - John 15:19 "If you were of the world, the world would love his own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
so yeah, same word - two completely different meanings.
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Also, regarding your John 5 quotation.
Compare these two verses:
John 5:24
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:44
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day"
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I hope i have shown to you that it is not man that chooses his own salvation, but it is God. And that subsequently God's Grace and Election are the SAME THING. Jesus died for the chosen people, and the chosen people are the ONLY people who believe in him (read John 10 for the most comprehensive explanation of this).
And finally, ponder over this verse, which may explain the point further;
John 1:12-13 (explaining the effect of Jesus' ministry)
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
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Xereo
828 posts
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Nat, i think we see things quite differently. This is fustrating, but hey its human nature. Ill explain to you how i see predestination.
I searched "destiny" in wikipedia ( ) and this is the first sentence of the page:
Destiny refers to a predetermined course of events.
I see these courses of events as Gods plan in our life. It doesn't necessarily
refer to the predestination of our salvation.
When i asked people "what do you think of predestination", the common response is "what do you mean? can you be more specific".
So its quite obvious that predestination refers to a number of different things.
Nat, you quoted some verses earlier. Ill explain to you how i see them. Please correct me if i accidentally change the meaning of these verses, im just trying to explain it in my words.
Ephesians 1: 11-12 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."
In God we were chosen. God gave each and one of us a plan, which is according to the plan of God, with the purpose of his will; in order that we, who were first to hope in Christ (to become Christians), might be praising at Gods glory.
Romans 8: 28-30 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
In all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
(For me this states that God works for the good of those who love him, who are Christians. So God wont predestine Christians to hell.)
For those God foreknew he also predestined (predetermined course of events) to be comformed to the likeness of his Son, that me might be the firstborn among many brothers.
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
So those God predestined (predetermined course of events) he also called; so this is technically everybody God created.
Those he called, he also justified; I see this as the process of people becoming Christians.
Those he justified, he also glorified. So God glorifies Christians, and im quite sure if God glorifies Christians, theres no way he would send them to an eternal life of pain and suffering.
So the main point is, predestination can mean different things. When i see the predestination that you show to me, i see it as Gods plan for us, not necessarily our salvation that God has predetermined.
I still find it hard to believe why people think that a God so pure and loving, would create human beings in his own image, and just send them to an eternal life of pain and suffering...i'm a christian, and if i was predestined to hell just for "Gods glory", i would absolutely hate God...and i think all of you would if you were in that situation...and Gods not stupid, God knows that we would hate him if he just sent us to hell for his glory (for that is quite self scented, and God is no hypocrite)...so i believe God gives us a chance to follow him, to recieve him as our king, and to be free of the kingdom of darkness
Hordern Pavilion 24/1/2007
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Grant Park, Chicago 5/8/2011
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nat smythe :
name:
thankyou for raising this highly revelant question.
here are the reasons for God's action in Egypt:
a) firstly he was fulfilling his covenant to his chosen people inside the nation of Israel. this was his promise to them, that He would reveal his glory through them; with an inheritance of descendants, land and blessing.
this is the common distinguishable theme throughout the Bible - God is so loyal to those people that he has chosen (those who believe in him), that he is willing to cause evil in the temporary to result in good in the long term. this is most effectively shown in the crucifixion of Jesus - though the event was evil beyond reckoning, according to the Bible it was entirely the Will of God. and it was the Will of God that out of the horrible and unjust death of Jesus, his chosen covenant people would be saved. similarly out of his determined destruction of the Egyptian Army, is chosen covenant people would be saved.
But was it so necessary to humiliate and torture an entire nation of people just so he could be glorified?!
Look at it this way - if Yahweh found it so necessary to prove himself to his people thousands of years ago, then why must we rely on pure "faith" nowadays??
I can understand fulfilling his promise by taking them from Egypt back to Israel, but you must remember that it was he who sent Joseph to Egypt in the first place, HE who took the land of Israel away from his own people!
Why did he pick Egypt? Why the Egyptians?!
The common story makes it sound like the Egyptians were effectively the "bad guys", when in fact it was all Yahweh's doing: Israel moving to Egypt, the Pharaoh's refusal to allow them to leave, the torturing of an entire nation!!
It's just the very idea of glorifying yourself in this sense sounds.... insane!
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b) secondly, God was responding to the complaints of Israel (see Exodus chapter 1) that he had abandoned his covenant people.
Actually, just so you know, his people complained to Moses as Mosestook them from Egypt to a desert where there was little or no food or water, whereas back at Egypt they could and drink as much as they liked whenever they liked! Yahweh essentially abandoned them and only reappeared after people complained.
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God was proving his faithfulness to his own people (rather than exploiting the Israelites) by making "fools of the Egyptians" and by the "signs performed among them". another common theme in the Bible is God proving his faithfulness to his people - rather than his people proving their faithfulness to God (they are ultimately unfaithful). commonly throughout the Bible, his exclusive faithfulness to his people is shown by the judgement of those who are not his people. this is shown symbolically throughout the Old Testament battles and wars - God's judgement of another people, proves his covenant love to his own people. according to the Bible this will ultimately be shown in judgement day - where God will show his mercy and love for his chosen people, by judging those who aren't.
Why did he chose those people? Why must you suffer eternally for being brought up in a non Christian/Jewish/Islam culture?
Granted most people are but some aren't, a significant chunk of the human race I would say!
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c) thirdly, this is all fine, but what gives God the right to judge and claim all the Glory?
good question.
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the third of the common themes in the Bible is God's power, justice and sovereignty. God created the universe - would this not result in God being praiseworthy? of course it would. but then you're argument against this would be - God is cruel for letting/making bad things happen. therefore he is not praiseworthy.
that is not my argument against the existence of God, in fact I feel that this is a very weak argument and should really not even be considered.
Assuming that God did create the universe - which is in itself a praiseworthy achievement, but does a painter punish everyone who does not appreciate his art? Does a musician mutilate races and destroy cities of those who do not like his music? No.
Why must people be punished for not showing God praise? If God did create free-will, then would he not expect people to disbelieve? and if he did not want this, why did he create free will? Of course you're going to say out of love, which is stupid.
"I love you, you can think what you want, but disagree with me and I will KILL you! I mean, I want you to think what you want, but only if it's what I want" That is what we a call a Totalitarian regime. While the creator may judge his creation (and I use that to describe anyone or anything who creates) and does have the right to judge, that does not mean the creators opinion is the highest of all opinions. And I don't want to hear that since he created us, god is the one and only truth blah blah. Bullshit. (sorry for cursing)
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but heres an analogy to understand the purpose of God's actions. we see things through the first lense (a finite, limited, mortal lense that only sees events in the present). God sees things through both the first lense and the second lense, exclusive to his characteristics (an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, immortal lense, that sees things not just in the temporary, but also sees the past and future too) - and it is with this lense that he determines events etc. though in the first lense, God will cause horrible things to happen, and he is no stranger to pain, in the second lense, the act is justified - and an ultimately wise decision according to his plan.
so we can complain only in the first lense, only seeing the present consequences from a mortal perspective - however God works all things, including evil, for good (Romans 8-9). and good, is determined as his plan to fulfill his promises to his covenant people.
Surely this second "lense" you speak of is only God's insane "conscience"(for want of a better word), which will obviously attempt to justify all of gods actions, no matter how immoral.
Here's another painter analogy: There's a painter who is not revered by all, and is rather down and emotionally unstable by the whole thing, an unworshipped god in a matter of ways. Now let's say he destroys all other paintings and kills all other painters for his own glory, now he is the only one who CAN be worshipped! HORRAY! It's an act of good is his own head, but does that mean it's an overall act of good? Not necessarily?
How can we trust a being who plays with his creation the way Yahweh has played with his in the Old Testament? A being, who is apparently ageless, timeless. Surely such a being would be, by nature, a tad insane. Living for all eternity, alone, but for a few toys for company?
A mother may kill her child, but it doesn't make it just. And it certainly tests my faith in the mother as a worthy candidate for worship.
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so i can follow God because he is worthy of praise and glory (he created everything therefore making it lawful for him to achieve glory however he wants), and his purpose/will, though incomprehensible from a human perspective, is perfect - because he is all powerful, all knowing and is the God of Truth. the proof of this can be observed in the records of the Bible, and even today.
i apologize if my responses were limited, i am short of time.
Proof? where is the proof?
All knowing? Well in a world of predeterminism, and you're the predeterminist, then obviously you will know ALL, it is your own "GRAND" scheme, your own agenda!!
Put my faith in an insane psychopath? no thank you.
Xereo
i can see the point david...my response is that God would never do such a thing today...for example, in the old testament, the custom was "and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", take revenge on those who deserve revenge... but then God sent Jesus, who preached the messages "love your neighbour", "love your enemey", "do to others as you would have them do to you" and so on...this is why Jesus was persecuted because he was teaching a message that was against the traditional Jewish belief of revenge....
i know this isnt an in depth answer, mainly because it would take some time to research it and stuff (and im quite sure nat smythe will give you the thurough answer), but i hope this clears some things up for you!
As nat said, the love thy neighbour belief was around during the Old testament, however, it was not around during the time of the Plagues. The laws of God were only brought to the people after their escape from Egypt.
But on the topic of Yahweh wouldn't do it again; why wouldn't he? It may be part of his "divine plan"? The ability to create does not give you the right to destroy.
I'm sorry but nat has only managed to convert from Christianity. Congratulations.
...the fact that it been chosen makes me thing it`ll be pants and were getting NSC 2. - Me, about Survival.
Its not elitism, some people are just better than others. - Joe.
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So Xereo, I have shown you plainly in the Bible that God saves a people for himself and refuses to save others - even Name has come to this Biblical conclusion. Does an atheist give the Bible more textual integrity than a so-called believer?
John 10:14-15
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me — just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep.
But you openly ignored the teachings of Jesus.
John 10:26-30
" But you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
You say Predestination, God's Glory and Sovereignty are inconsistent with God's love. But what do you know of God! You don't even listen to when he speaks.
God chooses to Save.
Ephesians 1:4-5
" For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will"
God chooses to not to Save.
Romans 9:22-23
"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath— prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?"
And you, who call yourself so proudly a Christian, accuse God of injustice? That is what Job did - and here is the first 7 verses out of over hundred of God's response to Job's complaint;
Job 38:1-7
" Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
Here, God's final question to Job. Ask yourself the same question.
Job 40:2
" Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!"
If you listen, then you are of the sheep, if you do not - i have no reason to believe you are a Christian.
Romans 9:18
" Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
Name, like Xereo you claim that the Christian God is unjust. And that's understandable, you are an atheist - feel free to make this assessment of God, whom you believe does not exist. Xereo on the other hand claims to be a Christian, believes in God - yet accuses the God who created him of being unjust.
at least one of you is consistent.
and Name, yes. if i make a painting, i can destroy the painting if i want to - does anyone call a painter immoral for destroying his artwork purely out of his own pleasure?
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