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Belief and science are completely separate. Science will never know everything and there will always be claims that are unfalsifiable. For example I predict there exists a doppelganger of Matt Bellamy who is completely undetectable by any scientific method, prove me wrong!
Perhaps your beliefs are true, even if they are that doesn't mean that your beliefs and rational scientific thought have to coincide. It may be that your beliefs are true but aren't supported by the evidence, even if the evidence contradicted your beliefs you wouldn't abandon your beliefs would you?
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I've always held the opinion that belief talks about the why, and that science talks about the how. So the two are different, but that doesn't mean they can't be associated with one another.
As cool as a year 7 on the first day of term...
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I like tea :
I've always held the opinion that belief talks about the why, and that science talks about the how. So the two are different, but that doesn't mean they can't be associated with one another.
Yes they may be associated and science may sometimes support a particular belief but there is no reason to believe that this will always be the case. I guess I could conceive of a belief being true and yet completely unprovable and unsupported by the evidence.
Why do some believers spend so long trying to superimpose all scientific facts with their beliefs. They don't have to coincide, we know this because they don't on many points and millions still cling to their religion and dogma.
There will always be gaps in our knowledge into which the uninformed will attempt to place superstition and religion.
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I heard a good one once: "Dinosaurs still exist you know, but after the flood all the pressures in the atmospheres changed and they shrunk!"
Right.
As cool as a year 7 on the first day of term...
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I'm starting to despair now. This posting appeared on a board I post on today.
"Hi all, I work at the center for puppetry arts in atlanta & right now everyone calling in to ask about our upcoming 'dinosaurs' show has a bunch of batshit creationist objections
'uhh does this have any references to dinosaurs living "millions of years" ago?'
'is it just one reference or is it a lot of references?'
'are there men living along with the dinosaurs, or does it "act like" they came later on??'
'does it have evolution in it?'
'does it mention "the flood?' etc etc etc etc etc
im trying to be polite with these worthless fucks but every time i have to tell them that the show 'falls on the traditional scientific view... which i know is an issue for some people... but most of it is implicit'....
how can i basically tell these people to fuck off without losing my job?"
I'm so, so glad I don't live in America.
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i dont expect anyone whos not a Christian to even take notice of the Genesis account; let alone take it seriously.
there is a difference to appealing to change your ideals, and enforcing your own opinions. Christians should never try and expect secular events to fit in with their agenda, its not how it works. in the case of the quotation above; some Americans should realize they are not living in a theocracy, and that theocracies are WRONG.
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Well said, Nat.
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WOW! There are certainly a lot of people not happy with my comments on creation. Obviously I can’t reply to all the comments so I’ll just go for a few general points: -
When I say evolution hasn’t been observed (or proven) I mean one type of animal changing to another that changes to another and so on.
Natural selection is NOT evolution. Adaptation is NOT evolution.
So because we don’t see every species in the fossil record, this proves evolution how? There are no missing links; Neanderthals are just humans that suffered from severe rickets.
Also calling evolution science and trying to make creationist scientists seem inferior does not do your argument any good. We are all sinful by nature and we will always mess up but if we repent then God will forgive us.
“The origin of life is a completely separate issue from evolution” that’s another good statement, so please tell me what does evolution concern itself with?
 Nats Isabelle Jessica
last.fm
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Run run the future is here, our fate is drawing near
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DESARENEZITIC :
When I say evolution hasn’t been observed (or proven) I mean one type of animal changing to another that changes to another and so on.
Natural selection is NOT evolution. Adaptation is NOT evolution.
So because we don’t see every species in the fossil record, this proves evolution how? There are no missing links; Neanderthals are just humans that suffered from severe rickets.
What do you expect to see? An animal with half an eye so that the liquid pours out, or maybe a manatee with wings? There are transitional animals, anti-evolutionists just seem to always want SCIENTISTS to find an animal which fits between another two. No matter how many fossils are found there will always be gaps.
I also see some people asking evolutionists to find weird mutants which would be poorly adapted, like a manatee with wings. They seem to think this is what is meant by missing links.
Finally, I am glad to see that you reject the scientific conclusions on Neanderthals and instead resort to belief. I am sure it is far more appealing for you to believe anything which proves your dogma. Why do you think the scientific community diagress with you, despite their vastly superior knowledge, training and study? Are scientists part of a conspiracy or are they just stupid in your eyes?
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Also calling evolution science and trying to make creationist scientists seem inferior does not do your argument any good. We are all sinful by nature and we will always mess up but if we repent then God will forgive us.
Let's call a spade a spade. The entire scientific community holds utter contempt for young earth creationism. Or more accurately they have contempt for people who try to call themselves scientists and young earth creationists at the same time. You can be one or the other, you can follow the evidence to the most logical conclusion we have concocted yet, or you can be a young earth creationist. I am sorry if you don't like it, but it is ridiculous for anti-science to want to be admitted to the ranks science.
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“The origin of life is a completely separate issue from evolution” that’s another good statement, so please tell me what does evolution concern itself with?
The diversification of life. Maybe a deity sparked it all, or maybe we just don't understand it yet. The creationist argument I have often heard is that since we cannot conceive of exactly how life may have started, it must have been created by the supernatural (god, xenu, spaghetti monster, whatever your particular crutch is...)
A more sensible argument is the ID one which goes out to prove that there are organisms or organelles which are too complicated to have evolved slowly, thus proving a supernatural element takes part in the FACT of evolution. However the ID arguments have not been accepted by the scientific community because they clearly hold no water!
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I'm agnostic.
I believe if there are so many religions that are so similar and blatantly have the same god, why devote your life to a single one? Furthermore, all of them say all God wants is you to believe in him and be sorry for your sins, so why should i feel the need to annoy him regularly every day or even just on a sunday morning? I bet he has a banging hangover on sunday mornings so 'praise de lord' on sunday morning must be a right bastard thing!
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Heh. The Jews are considerate and do it on a Saturday.
As cool as a year 7 on the first day of term...
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Kashmir :
The entire scientific community holds utter contempt for young earth creationism. Or more accurately they have contempt for people who try to call themselves scientists and young earth creationists at the same time.
lets not generalize shall we. im sure ALL scientists hold in utter contempt people who arent scientists trying to represent their community.
what do you mean, we just don't understand it yet? do you think science will find God in a little house on Mars? do you think human knowledge is the key to understanding? you accuse Christians of being narrow minded; take the plank of wood out of your own eye.
and stop your absolutely brilliantly hilarious sphagetti monster routine, look im sure you think its hilarious, and maybe a few other monty python fans do; but it might actually be interpretted as offensive to a people who know God personally and wouldnt put anything in the world in front of their relationship with God.
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Keyser_So_So :Furthermore, all of them say all God wants is you to believe in him and be sorry for your sins, so why should i feel the need to annoy him regularly every day or even just on a sunday morning?
another generalization. The muslim god wants you to follow the five pillars of Islam. the modern jewish god wants you to follow the torah and the talmud. your hindu god/s has various different rules for everything and remains pretty inconsistent as a whole. and your buddhist laws tell you to seek the 7 noble truths.
the Christian God, the one and only God doesnt demand anything from you, he wants to give something to you. he wants to give you eternal life and to be in a relationship with you (so much so he sent his son to die and raise again) but we dont want it. there is no "saying sorry" involved in Christianity, only celebration when a sinner recieves eternal life. Church is merely a celebration of what God has done than a command like all the other religions. we dont need to have Church on sunday, no, we should have it everyday and rejoice in Christ. but its something we want to do.
and tell me please how are they "blatantly" the same god? i dont think you've got your facts straight buddy, not only do all religions differ considerably from one another (and speaking as you know above all of them in the way pluralists do is nothing short of ignorant) but some of their fundamental rules are say "there is no god but allah", "you shall have no other gods before me", "i am the one and only God"...i think that cancels out religous pluralism. let alone going into deep analysis of the attributes of different "gods", i think you'll find they're ridiculously different and ONLY one has revealed himself in history.
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nat smythe :
lets not generalize shall we. im sure ALL scientists hold in utter contempt people who arent scientists trying to represent their community.
what do you mean, we just don't understand it yet? do you think science will find God in a little house on Mars? do you think human knowledge is the key to understanding? you accuse Christians of being narrow minded; take the plank of wood out of your own eye.
and stop your absolutely brilliantly hilarious sphagetti monster routine, look im sure you think its hilarious, and maybe a few other monty python fans do; but it might actually be interpretted as offensive to a people who know God personally and wouldnt put anything in the world in front of their relationship with God.
I am sure all scientists have contempt for people who attempt to delve into science without any real knowledge or study. I am sure these people take themselves seriously but rest assured that the scientific body really doesn't. I frankly find their forays from religion to pseudo-science to be truly offensive to people who know what reason and logic mean, and wouldn't put anything in the world in front of rational thought.
I am not sure what you are refering to in your second paragraph, but just because reason and sense have no explanation for a phenomenon as of yet is no proof that it must be the result of the supernatural.
I hate to go all Dawkins on your ass but if I find the very idea of believing in a god ridiculous and I think I have the right to ridicule it. The fact that there is not one convincing argument for the existence of a deity, let alone your paricular one, means that there is no reason to fervently believe in one. How is it that we see nothing wrong in forcing a religion on a child, it's a form of brainwashing!
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Another generalization. The muslim god wants you to follow the five pillars of Islam. the modern jewish god wants you to follow the torah and the talmud. your hindu god/s has various different rules for everything and remains pretty inconsistent as a whole. and your buddhist laws tell you to seek the 7 noble truths.
the Christian God, the one and only God doesnt demand anything from you, he wants to give something to you. he wants to give you eternal life and to be in a relationship with you. we dont need to have Church on sunday, no, we should have it everyday and rejoice in Christ. but its something we want to do.
I think you will find that if you ask a muslim he will also tell you that Allah "the one and only God doesnt demand anything from you, he wants to give something to you." You act like Christianity is somehow above other religions in the practicalities of it, there is no evidence for this as this simply isn't true.
From an objective point of view most religions are practically the same, they all have the same basic message about how to live your life, they only differ in their specific stories and specific traditions. Islam and Christianity both speak of peace, they urge their followers to educate non believers in the hope that they will convert and find "salvation". Christianity isn't some beacon of truth in a sea of other false religions. You only see it that way because you believe you are right.
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see once again, you are ignorant of other religions; i think you need to read more about islam. and definitely read more about Christianity.
if there is no reason to believe in one God, why do i believe in the one and only true God? its because hes revealed himself to me, and i can testify wholeheartedly telling the truth, there is a God, and to say otherwise is to be blinded by your own pride.
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nat smythe :
see once again, you are ignorant of other religions; i think you need to read more about islam. and definitely read more about Christianity.
if there is no reason to believe in one God, why do i believe in the one and only true God? its because hes revealed himself to me, and i can testify wholeheartedly telling the truth, there is a God, and to say otherwise is to be blinded by your own pride.
What do I need to know about Islam? I know a lot about muslims and I don't like many of the things that I hear coming from these so called Muslims. However whatever they say and do doesn't reflect on Islam. So please tell me exactly what you think I need to know.
So you think that there is some tangible reason to consider Christianity to be a superior religion and belief system than any other? There is no logical reason to even believe in god, no form of rational reasoning will lead a person to become a Christian. Only faith, despair or some kind of spiritual experience can do this.
Prove to me that there is a god? It is impossible of course, and therefore the sensible position is healthy scepticism, especially when we can't know which of the religions is in fact the true one. You are sensible and I believe that you have admitted that since religion is a matter of pure belief, it should be cut off from mainstream education, government, legislature.
By the way I am sure you are aware of how insulting it is to say I am blinded by pride. It is a kin to me using the argument that you only believe in god because you are too scared and fragile to face a life which may have "no meaning" or that your spiritual experience was some kind of delusion or dream.
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tangable reason; Jesus Christ.
no other religion has any tangable reason that God or a god/s exist except for Christianity. Jesus came, performed miracles, died and rose again; proven historical fact. but was he the Son of God, God incarnate? you make up your own mind.
once again, everything created proves God is there, explain to me how i can think, and how i can write my thoughts, how i can walk, talk, breath, play sport, listen to Muse without a God? how does it happen? it is impossible, everything made could not be made without God. scientific theories are so narrow minded, so weak, it is impossible to come to the conclusion that the universe was a fluke, and so was the earth, and so was life on earth, and so are humans, and so is evolution; thats crap and you know it. there is ample evidence that there is a God, let alone Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. there is NO evidence that there is not a God, none at all.
im not scared and fragile, why then would i go to the death in the belief that i was given directly from God? if i was scared and fragile and only believed as an excuse i wouldnt be so confident. but i can be, and i only believe things that im 100% certain in, which is why i think evolution is a load of bollocks. i dont care if im insulting you, if it helps you come to your wits then great.
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DESARENEZITIC :
There are no missing links; Neanderthals are just humans that suffered from severe rickets.
Well done. You just lost every single scrap of credibility in one sentence. Game Over.
So now that DES has blown that one, we can at least talk about comparative religion (which is an interesting subject) in peace.... I hope.
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nat smythe :
tangable reason; Jesus Christ.
no other religion has any tangable reason that God or a god/s exist except for Christianity. Jesus came, performed miracles, died and rose again; proven historical fact. but was he the Son of God, God incarnate? you make up your own mind.
Wow do you seriosuly think that? Jesus most probably existed, but he performed miracles? You seriously believe this just because a book tells you he did? You think Christianity gains credibility over other religions for making the most outrageous untestable claims?
The reasons you state are tangible only for you. They are based entirely on belief, just like every other religion. Strong belief is not something to be proud necessarily: it either means rejection and ignorance of the evidence or speculation. This is why science is so powerful, it takes the evidence and puts together a theory to explain all the evidence which is the most suitable. Science starts from understanding nothing and builds up slowly with theories that fit ALL the evidence. Religion is all about theories which plug the holes in scientific fact and knowledge.
Your rejection of evolution is on the same level as a rejection of Quantum theory or Plate tectonics and for you to claim otherwise is to put yourself outside of all scientific thinking amongst the hoardes of barbarians.
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once again, everything created proves God is there, explain to me how i can think, and how i can write my thoughts, how i can walk, talk, breath, play sport, listen to Muse without a God? how does it happen? it is impossible, everything made could not be made without God. scientific theories are so narrow minded, so weak, it is impossible to come to the conclusion that the universe was a fluke, and so was the earth, and so was life on earth, and so are humans, and so is evolution; thats crap and you know it. there is ample evidence that there is a God, let alone Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. there is NO evidence that there is not a God, none at all.
This paragraph makes no sense. Sounds like an argument from ignorance, you can't understand something, so therefore there must be a god is a completely fallacious line of thinking!
"There is no eveidence that there is not a god" is another piece of fallacious talk, which really pisses me off. You can't really prove a negative! For example: There is no evidence that aliens, mermaids and the loch ness monster don't exist despite the many sightings. You can't prove a negative, god is set up as the unprovable, god is everything that we don't understand!
I hear many people make the argument that god must exist because the world would be terrible without it. Where does morality come from they say? Without god bad people would get away with good things they say. Idiots!
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im not scared and fragile, why then would i go to the death in the belief that i was given directly from God? if i was scared and fragile and only believed as an excuse i wouldnt be so confident. but i can be, and i only believe things that im 100% certain in, which is why i think evolution is a load of bollocks. i dont care if im insulting you, if it helps you come to your wits then great.
You think you're not scared and fragile, but can you imagine how you would feel if you discovered there was no god somehow. You would be shattered and wouldn't be able to go on. I'm just saying that many people turn to god because they can't face a life which may seem empty and meaningless, they can't face the truth in my opinion because it scares them too much. So they turn to god, this isn't a conscious decision, but they desperately want to believe it, so their brains make them. It is a good survival tool don't you think?
You don't insult me, you insult yourself with your poor logic. Evolution is like every other scientific theory we have, it is the BEST available answer we have to a problem which fits the available evidence. You aren't 100% certain in evoultion for two reasons: You don't know enough about it clearly, and you have another dogamtic story which you prefer. What your heart wants to believe is very different from what the truth is... I want to believe that "good" will triumpth over "evil", but I know this isn't the reality all the time.
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simuse :
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DESARENEZITIC :
There are no missing links; Neanderthals are just humans that suffered from severe rickets.
Well done. You just lost every single scrap of credibility in one sentence. Game Over.
So now that DES has blown that one, we can at least talk about comparative religion (which is an interesting subject) in peace.... I hope.
I like how by just dismissing me by saying “Game Over” it makes you somehow seem all clever and correct! When Neanderthal was first discovered he was put together with an evolutionary bias which was later amended and Neanderthal man would look basically no different to “modern” man. If you just want to explain were you consider Neanderthal man to be?
Also I am more than fine with discussing other topics but I make one post and get 6 or more replies shooting me down, what do you want me to do?
And why are you so worried about your belief being challenged? Worried people might see what evolution really teaches kids?
Nats Isabelle Jessica
last.fm
Run run the past is gone, it cannot be undone
Run run the future is here, our fate is drawing near
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DESARENEZITIC :
I like how by just dismissing me by saying “Game Over” it makes you somehow seem all clever and correct! When Neanderthal was first discovered he was put together with an evolutionary bias which was later amended and Neanderthal man would look basically no different to “modern” man. If you just want to explain were you consider Neanderthal man to be?
It's amazing that you seem to be better informed on Neanderthal man than the entire scientific community... How peculiar also that those who deny evidence like this always seem to have a dogma which is conflicted by it... I imagine you may well be one of these people who seem to think that Radiactive Isotope dating is flawed.
I will accept anything the scientific community agrees upon because they are more learned than me, disagreeing with them on matters such as this is like you disagreeing with them on cosmology or subatomic particles. You just don't have the qualifications to dismiss them, and no one who does have the qualifications dismisses it, because like it or not, it's the truth as we know it!
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And why are you so worried about your belief being challenged? Worried people might see what evolution really teaches kids?
Evolution is not faith based or a belief, please do some basic study on science: http://www.jesusandmo.net/2006/03/29/faith/
I am worried about people relying on superstition and more importantly I am worried about fanaticism. I worry about religion being placed on some kind of altar as if it isn't acceptable to laugh at it if we disagree. I worry about religious people challenging rational thought and science based solely on their faith in a chosen book: http://www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/intelligentdesigncase/dovertrialtranscripts.htm
What do you mean by: "Worried people might see what evolution really teaches kids?". Evolution teaches kids evolution and nothing else... I don't know what you are trying to say here!
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DESARENEZITIC :
Also I am more than fine with discussing other topics but I make one post and get 6 or more replies shooting me down, what do you want me to do?
Stop posting rubbish? You are even embarrassing your fellow Creationists.
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I mean evolution teaches kids that we were an accident, that we are just animals, that it is survival of the fittest at any cost.
Evolution is dogmatic so i'm not sure were you're coming from there?
Also like it or not we are all going to be judged one day by our Creator - God and we'll have to account for our lives.
Which fellow Creationists am I embarassing simuse? I don't claim to know more than any scientist all I am saying is that they look at the evidence around us and come up with resulst that suit there evolutionary BIAS.
Nats Isabelle Jessica
last.fm
Run run the past is gone, it cannot be undone
Run run the future is here, our fate is drawing near
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DESARENEZITIC :
I mean evolution teaches kids that we were an accident, that we are just animals, that it is survival of the fittest at any cost.
thats not true, you have plenty of christian evolutionists.
I beleive evolutionism was what happened, yea, doesnt mean we were an accident. I beleive God created the big bang, God created the first spark of life, god influences and guides how we evolved into sentient beings.
But similarly i beleive all living, conscious creatures have a soul, including animals. including us.
I was taught strict evolutionism in school as "science" and in biology, and I learnt creationism in Religous Education as a christian beleif,
but i still ended up beleiving in god. its not like children are being brainwashed.
21/08/04 :: 20/12/04 :: 22/11/06 :: 16/06/07 :: 16/08/08 :: 28/08/11
Have you seen fattys leg? Its fucking fucked! :: Matt
ZAFO!
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DESARENEZITIC :
I mean evolution teaches kids that we were an accident, that we are just animals, that it is survival of the fittest at any cost.
Evolution is dogmatic so i'm not sure were you're coming from there?
Also like it or not we are all going to be judged one day by our Creator - God and we'll have to account for our lives.
Which fellow Creationists am I embarassing simuse? I don't claim to know more than any scientist all I am saying is that they look at the evidence around us and come up with resulst that suit there evolutionary BIAS.
Evolution is a fact, theory is the technical term, but you creationists have a hard time understanding that a Scientific Theory isn't just speculation, it is something which is the accepted version of events.
Evolution is in no way dogmatic, there just hasn't been any evidence to contradict it yet. New evidence and research is analysed and scientists see if it fits within the framework of evolutionary theory. If it does then goodie. If it doesn't, then the theory is adapted. If the theory cannot be adapted then a new theory is needed. This is how science works, the complete opposite of dogma which doesn't bend to new evidence at all.
You might once have said that the theory that light is a wave was dogmatic, no scientists thought otherwise and believed this to be absolute fact. Until an experiment showed that light didn't always act as a wave, so a new theory of wave-particle duality. You just like to think evolution is dogmatic, against every scientist's opinion that it is not, because you have your own "theory" which doesn't fit in with evolution.
Now, even if evolution taught us that the world is a horrible place and that "might is right", this in no way bears on whether it is true or not. Evolution in fact teaches us no such thing. We see cooperation and charity as being beneficial to the survival of a species and in many cases beneficial to the genes which promote these actions in a group.
We are just animals essentially, just more complicated than other animals. I see no evidence to the contrary! If we were just an "accident", so what?! How does this take away from existence and the marvels of our universe?
I'm glad that you will probably never have to find out that you were wrong on the whole god thing. If I am wrong on the other hand I will at least discover the truth one day. You can live the "lie" with confidence that either way your mind will be at ease once you are dead.
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guys seriously, play the ball not the man. Paul is just informing you of what he knows as fact, and is not "embarassing" his fellow creatonists.
hey kashmir; on tangible evidence. remember how i took ages to explain how biased sources against Jesus still stated he performed miracles and indeed rose from the dead; Jewish historians, Roman scholars as well as Greek...these people were pitched firmly against Jesus and wanted to uproot Christianity but still claimed Jesus indeed rose from the dead and performed "inexplicable deeds" (as Josephus states). these people were on your side; they didnt want Jesus to be God either. but they had all the evidence and werent so proud and up themselves to say, "oh from my knowledge that must be incorrect". just for a second suppose that you have come to the conclusion not because there is not enough evidence for God and Jesus Christ; it is because you are scared that God exists, you dont want him to. if he did you reckon your life would be screwed, and you know this full well. you dont not believe in God, you just hate God. seriously, what right do you have to complain, and what right do you have not to believe; he is there, see him, feel him through Jesus.
stop going to Genesis for your only defence against your ungrounded beliefs, you all admit that your not even 100% sold on this! pathetic!! you are not going to believe Genesis if your not a Christian, so stop trying to make other people force their beliefs on you and then cry "im being opressed". you all think that man has all the answers, but look how weak man is; man lies, man cheats, man murders, man is selfish, man is proud, man is boastful yet man is flawed, man thinks he has all the answers but doesnt know why he asks the question in the first place; man puts himself above all others, man never cares for others and only does good for his own sake, in conclusion; man sucks.
atheists. stop trying to word your immature beliefs; just like you dont trust Gods word; i dont trust mans word!! i know from first hand experience, that man is full of crap (by man i am talking about mankind for all you raging feminists). we dont have the answers, we dont even have free will; yes we can choose whether we walk or we talk, but we are incapable of doing anything good and you know this. no one is righteous not even one. every single person is intrinsically evil, you know your own thoughts and heres the bad thing; so does God! but even though he knows us, as ugly and imperfect and flawed as we are; he loves us! every single one of us.
seriously atheists should be banned from quoting humankind from now on; its invalid. if we cant quote Gods word for you, neither can you quote mans word. because Gods word has come true in every way; mans word only has his own interest at heart and lies 100% and knows it, and fails to live up to its promises.
ok atheists, tell me why, oh high and mighty peoples, why would you hate a God who loves you. and remember i dont trust mans word, only Gods word. anything else is a POOR excuse for an argument, if you want to take this seriously; give us something we can believe.
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